Americans DO Torture, and Then They Go to Prison

We cannot let the criminals skate on this one. Torture is a crime and the Americans who committed torture, approved torture, justified torture, defended torture are criminals and must be subjected to the rule of law: investigated, arrested, charged, arraigned, indicted, prosecuted, judged and if guilty sentenced.

Anything less is abject surrender to the forces of anti-democracy, the cynics who have said for 200 years that American idealism couldn't last, the corrupters who have been waiting for us to fall. And to fail.

Readers at Talking Points Memo are still fighting for genuine American ideals.

Past as Predicate

More on torture, from TPM Reader PB:

"I think something else tends to get lost in the current arguments about torture. The whole issue has been framed as "moving forward" and looking to the future (good) versus doling out "retribution" and dwelling on the past (bad). This is not merely the Republican framing of the issue, as Obama and many Democrats seem to have accepted this framework.

"But this framing is entirely wrong. A better way to look at is that we can either choose to do something about the fact people were tortured by the United States government, or we can choose to ignore it. Either outcome will have a profound effect on what happens in this country "moving forward."

"Choosing to ignore profound and systematic violations of international law creates a bad precedent that can (and no doubt will) be followed by future administrations. The current administration might be inclined to have a "no torture" policy, but the next one might think more like the Bush Administration. What expectation would members of future administrations have of being prosecuted for violating the law if we don't hold the past one accountable?

"In many ways the decision to "move forward" and pardon Nixon set the stage for Iran-Contra and the Bush administration's myriad law breaking. What future horrors will ignoring the fact that the Bush administration codified torture as a "legal" interrogation technique set the stage for? This is not a can that can be kicked down the road because we have other problems we have to deal with. But no matter what we do now, this is about what might happen in the future as much as it is about what did happen in the past."

It's All About Us

From TPM Reader CR:

"One odd thing about this torture debate is that it's all about *us.* Whether we committed a crime, how it affects our collective soul, how the wheels of justice ought to move (if at all). But nobody is talking about the victims--it's as if torture were analogous to smoking the marijuana you grew in the woods behind your house. Something technically illegal, but something that only hurts yourself, so everybody else should just butt out.

"But what nobody is talking about is who (apart from super-duper bad guys KSM and Abu Zubaydah) actually *was* tortured, how many people were tortured, whether any of them were children, what the physical and psychological results of that torture was, how many people died as a result of that torture, whether any of these people have since been recognized as harmless, and whether any of these people were American citizens."

Late Update: TPM Reader ZZ responds:

"Following up on your post from CR, how has there not been more focus on OUR people who were actually asked to do these horrific things?! What becomes of the people who waterboard the same man 183 times?

"Asking American ... to commit these heinous acts was a crime against them, as well. And their voices should be a part of this story and our sense of collective outrage."

TPM Reader MB disagrees:

"CR raises some questions that merit consideration, but I think miss the point. If all of those questions were answered, and it came out that none of the detainees died and none were harmless or children or American citizens, does that make the torture okay? Of course not. Having any of those questions answered the other way only raises the outrage level, but does nothing to change the fundamental facts about morality and the rule of law.

"In fact, I find it odd how few people are talking about the other ways this story *does* affect us. Give the government the freedom to torture, and they will someday use it on *us*, if they haven't already. Torture is a fine recruiting tool for Al Qaeda, which creates enemies for *us*. And so on."

TPM Reader CH wonders what became of justice for all:

"I think there is a significant issue not being addressed in any sort of sufficient manner; namely, there were several people prosecuted and convicted as a direct result of the policies of the people who signed off on torture. These people were [I hate to say it] thrown under the bus as "a few bad apples". What is to happen to these folks? How come the policy makers, notably wealthy individuals, get off Scot free?

"Some folks have already paid a pretty hard price, deservedly so, but they were the small-fry scapegoats.

"We need to move forward and demand accountability from those who actually were responsible for the policy of torture as high as that goes."

Repugs like to throw out warnings about American values every time a liberal sneezes and scream about how shaking hands with a Latin American pipsqueak shatters the foundations of our democracy.

But the debate over whether or not to prosecute torturers - and the outrageous fact that such prosecution is even subject to debate at all - is, indeed, a battle for America's soul.

Cross-posted at They Gave Us A Republic ....